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Rank these player all-time now

  • that's why they should de-fund research for it!

    screamin_jay ●

  • Sweet!LaserTag! said...

    Oh I thought marylandmike was just admitting he was being a ridiculous homer earlier in the thread.

    But nowwww he's defending it.... yikes.

    Sorry, there's nothing ridiculous about putting Bird ahead of Magic. I did so without thinking twice because I'm a homer, but regardless of who you put ahead between the two, it's close.

    marylandmike

  • screamin_jay said...

    lol

    i'm sure you've never spent time on this board talking about stuff you really have no firsthand knowledge about

    So pretty much anything that didn't happen within 15 minutes of the ILLADELPH?

    Tabe

  • marylandmike said...

    Sorry, there's nothing ridiculous about putting Bird ahead of Magic. I did so without thinking twice because I'm a homer, but regardless of who you put ahead between the two, it's close.

    Ok but what is the statistical proof FOR Bird above Magic? Not saying it doesn't exist but I'd like to hear it.

    Canyonerooooo ●

  • Sweet!LaserTag! said...

    Ok but what is the statistical proof FOR Bird above Magic? Not saying it doesn't exist but I'd like to hear it.

    Bird - 24pts 10reb 6assists a game

    Magic - 19, 7, 11

    So, Bird more pts, rebounds, Magic more assists. Nothing surprising there.

    Magic had a higher fg%. Bird had the higher 3pt% and higher ft%.

    Neither was a great defender, but Bird did make all-defense 2nd team 3 times. Magic was never named to any all- defense teams. Not exactly a stat, I understand.

    Like I said, it's close. Biased for sure, but I'll go with Bird every time.

    marylandmike

  • I'm surprised nobody has really argued Shaq v. Duncan. To me, that's the much more interesting debate than this silly Shaq v. Bird one.

    vadimivich

  • TerpsSoccer said...

    1. Kobe
    2. Magic
    3.LeBron
    4.Bird
    5.Shaq
    6.Duncan

    Putting Kobe at the top of this list makes you appear 27% goofier. No matter what you think about the rest, its real hard to argue he's better than Magic or Shaq.

    HoopheadVII

  • marylandmike said...

    Bird - 24pts 10reb 6assists a game

    Magic - 19, 7, 11

    So, Bird more pts, rebounds, Magic more assists. Nothing surprising there.

    Magic had a higher fg%. Bird had the higher 3pt% and higher ft%.

    Neither was a great defender, but Bird did make all-defense 2nd team 3 times. Magic was never named to any all- defense teams. Not exactly a stat, I understand.

    Like I said, it's close. Biased for sure, but I'll go with Bird every time.

    The argument makes sense, but I think Simmons hits it on the nail in his book - both guys had relatively short careers, but ultimately, you'd choose Magic's prime over Bird's if only because it was slightly longer.

    And less not pretend that stats can be used to compute and compare either of these guys' greatness - a) they played different positions, and b) you didn't need numbers to see that they were absolute magicians with the ball.

    cathal

  • Sweet!LaserTag! said...

    lol. so much fail....jesus.

    You weren't alive. Wtf do you know?

    parlay ●

  • HoopheadVII said...

    Old man, bad memory.

    Defense was not better in the 80s. For example, average PPG in 1985 was 110.8. Now, it hovers around 100.

    And, LOL at Magic being able to defend LeBron. He could defend him with Kareem behind him and Cooper helping out. Magic and LeBron are the same size, but LeBron is a significantly better athlete. And to be generous, Magic wasn't an elite defender.

    Do you think ppg is reflective of better D now of less imaginative O and an emphasis on one on one play over team play? Rule changes? Des being allowed to play zone have an impact? How the game is called?

    parlay ●

  • HoopheadVII said...

    As for enforcers,

    1. Kareem and "enforcer" should never be used in the same sentence. That's just a joke. He's the least agressive great big man ever. Google "kareem enforcer" and all you can find are stories about him getting punched.

    2. Hakeem and Ewing blocked a lot of shots, but not even at the rate Ibaka does. LeBron just did fine against Ibaka.

    3. Parish qualified as an enforcer back in the day, but LeBron has 20 lbs on him despite being 4in shorter. Good luck. In fact, Lebron outweighs Parish, Ewing, and Laimbeer, despite being 3-4 in shorter.

    Kareem averaged between 3 and 4 blocks per game for the first 8 seasons of his career.

    You are on crack for mentioning ibaka with Hakeem or Ewing.

    Is this boxing or wrestling? Since when does weight matter? Does Durant then suck because he weighs 120? That point is as dumb as your opinion.

    parlay ●

  • You said he played against the toughest center in history. I'm guessing it was typo

    parlay ●

  • parlay said...

    You weren't alive. Wtf do you know?

    You were alive and seem to not have any idea what you are talking about.

    Bringing up zone actually goes against your argument, not for it. Thought you should know.

    And saying Magic would have no problem guarding Lebron takes the cake as the most ridiculous thing said in this thread. Magic wasn't even known as a lock down defender first off. But whatever that isn't even the point. Currently there is no basketball player living or dead that at any point in their defensive career would have "no problem" with Lebron. He figured it out. The light bulb went off. Have you been watching? He is an impossible match up right now....

    Canyonerooooo ●

  • No one on this list can guard LeBron. In the history of the sport, that list is really short.

    uncc9ers

  • uncc9ers said...

    No one on this list can guard LeBron. In the history of the sport, that list is really short.

    Who on this list can guard anyone on this list? We're talking about incredibly smart to great defenders, but I'm pretty sure everyone's offensive prime trumps everyone's best defense.

    cathal

  • parlay said...

    Kareem averaged between 3 and 4 blocks per game for the first 8 seasons of his career.

    You are on crack for mentioning ibaka with Hakeem or Ewing.

    Is this boxing or wrestling? Since when does weight matter? Does Durant then suck because he weighs 120? That point is as dumb as your opinion.

    You said those guys were legitimate enforcers.

    For starters, Ewing and Parish were the only ones on your list who were physical at all, and LeBron is bigger than they are, so I think he'd hold his own.

    The thought of Kareem and or Olajuwon as enforcers is such a joke, I thought you must have confused "enforcer" with "shotblocker" in your Alzheimers state. That was the only confused possibility that remotely made sense. And LeBron just did fine against another shotblocker that blocks as shots at as high a rate as those guys.

    And Magic was known for jumping passing lanes for a good number of steals, but was a poor defender otherwise. LeBron would crap all over Magic one on one - but he'd never guard him because his coach would know that having Magic defend LeBron would be suicide.

    HoopheadVII

  • Love this thread! Great memories with the names on this list. thumbsupcoffee

    feartheturtle02

  • parlay said...

    Do you think ppg is reflective of better D now of less imaginative O and an emphasis on one on one play over team play? Rule changes? Des being allowed to play zone have an impact? How the game is called?

    I think it's a reflection of being harder to score now. Zone defense means defenses are significantly better now.

    And LOL at offenses being less sophisticated today. Old white guy says stupid things.

    And that's coming from an (slightly less) old white guy.

    HoopheadVII

  • I like the idea that somehow a massive freak like Lebron couldn't have played in a more physical league. Basketball's different now than it was in the 80s, we all get that. But if Lebron was born in 1960 instead of 1984, he would have grown up playing a physical game, and he would have been perfectly equipped to deal with that. Just because he thrives on getting to the line in this game doesn't mean he couldn't have played just as well in a different system.

    tecmoHOOperbowl

  • cathal said...

    Who on this list can guard anyone on this list? We're talking about incredibly smart to great defenders, but I'm pretty sure everyone's offensive prime trumps everyone's best defense.

    Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan were pretty good defenders. They have 32 All-NBA Defensive Team appearances between them. Good call.

    HoopheadVII

  • Sweet!LaserTag! said...

    And saying Magic would have no problem guarding Lebron takes the cake as the most ridiculous thing said in this thread. Magic wasn't even known as a lock down defender first off. But whatever that isn't even the point. Currently there is no basketball player living or dead that at any point in their defensive career would have "no problem" with Lebron. He figured it out. The light bulb went off. Have you been watching? He is an impossible match up right now....

    Other than saying the light bulb went "off" instead of "on" I don't disagree with anything you said here.

    But you don't have Lebron ahead of Magic on this list do you? Maybe one day, but certainly not today.

    UMClassof90

  • parlay said...

    You said he played against the toughest center in history. I'm guessing it was typo

    In general, the best defensive centers played in the '90s. No other decade is really all that close.

    iheartjamesgist

  • HoopheadVII said...

    Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan were pretty good defenders. They have 32 All-NBA Defensive Team appearances between them. Good call.

    They were/are GREAT defenders, and Magic and Bird did fine just on basketball IQ. The point is that this idea that LeBron couldn't be guarded by any of these guys is moot, because none of these guys' best defense could trump any of their best offense.

    cathal

  • cathal said...

    They were/are GREAT defenders, and Magic and Bird did fine just on basketball IQ. The point is that this idea that LeBron couldn't be guarded by any of these guys is moot, because none of these guys' best defense could trump any of their best offense.

    But whereas LeBron would likely drop 35 on their average-to-good defense, they'd likely only score about 20-25* on LeBron's superb defense. Pretty big difference.

    *or since they've never been matched up with an athletic freak like LeBron, they'd be overwhelmed and struggle to score much at all, especially Magic, who would likely just defer to teammates.

    iheartjamesgist

  • iheartjamesgist said...

    But whereas LeBron would likely drop 35 on their average-to-good defense, they'd likely only score about 20-25* on LeBron's superb defense. Pretty big difference.

    *or since they've never been matched up with an athletic freak like LeBron, they'd be overwhelmed and struggle to score much at all, especially Magic, who would likely just defer to teammates.

    LOL, come back to this thread when you stop using scoring / one-on-one isolations as a barometer for the greatness of guys like Bird and Magic. Heck, if you exclude Game 6 against the Celtics, you could argue that LeBron's best games weren't the 35+ scoring nights, but rather the (near-) triple doubles.

    cathal

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