Online Now 1159

General Sports Water Cooler

A place for lively discussion for all other sports unrelated to Maryland athletics

On this Board 252
Record: 2758 (12/1/2012)

Online now 1104
Record: 11761 (2/27/2012)

Boards ▾

Inside Scoop

The Web's No. 1 forum for coverage and discussion of Terps sports

Terps Sports

Visitor discussion of University of Maryland and college sports

General Sports Water Cooler

A place for lively discussion for all other sports unrelated to Maryland athletics

Off-Topic

Test/Feedback Forum

Feedback for IMS and 247Sports

The Ticket Exchange

Reply

Rank these player all-time now

  • iheartjamesgist said...

    Old players are always so overrated. I always have trouble placing Shaq on the list because he's just so much different than everyone else, but there's no way Kobe isn't top-3 on this list. I'd probably have to rank it:

    Kobe Magic Shaq LeBron Duncan Bird

    and LeBron's really the only one who can (and probably will) move up the list

    You're conflating the 80s - remember, the decade a young Jordan had trouble winning in - with the mid-70s, 60s, and 50s. If you really think Bird and Magic couldn't pull the same shit today that they did (at least on an individual level) back then, I really have to question if you'd actually seen them play.

    cathal

  • terp80 said...

    Which of Chamberlain, Russell and Jordan do you have below Shaq?

    I have it

    1. MJ
    2. Kareem
    3. Magic
    4. Shaq
    5. Russell (Russell and Shaq are almost interchangeable)
    6. Duncan
    7. Wilt
    8. Hakeem
    9. Kobe
    10. Bird

    Coltsfan1832644

  • UM90 is going to murder the real Conan O'Brien when he sees that list.

    IVWT

  • Coltsfan1832 said...

    I have it

    1. MJ 2. Kareem 3. Magic 4. Shaq 5. Russell (Russell and Shaq are almost interchangeable) 6. Duncan 7. Wilt 8. Hakeem 9. Kobe 10. Bird

    Just LOL at having a guy who harnessed his full potential for a total of one season as the #4 player of all time. I hate to use the "No one who has watched all of these guys play has Shaq anywhere close to #4" argument, but no one who has watched all of these guys play has Shaq anywhere close to #4.

    cathal

  • Coltsfan1832 said...

    I have it

    1. MJ 2. Kareem 3. Magic 4. Shaq 5. Russell (Russell and Shaq are almost interchangeable) 6. Duncan 7. Wilt 8. Hakeem 9. Kobe 10. Bird

    I'm sorry I ever began this debate. Wilt @ #7 is lunacy.

    uncc9ers

  • cathal said...

    Just LOL at having a guy who harnessed his full potential for a total of one season as the #4 player of all time. I hate to use the "No one who has watched all of these guys play has Shaq anywhere close to #4" argument, but no one who has watched all of these guys play has Shaq anywhere close to #4.

    His "potential" is GOAT. Since he didn't harness it, he has to settle for #4 or #5. And yes people played against Shaq would rank him high. He was the most unguardable guy of his era. Just look at what he did from 98-03 and look at what he did in his first 5 finals.

    Coltsfan1832644

  • uncc9ers said...

    I'm sorry I ever began this debate. Wilt @ #7 is lunacy.

    Wilt was a loser plain and simple and his teams overachieved even when they had talent. For all the talk about LeBron being unclutch, wilt was 100x worse. Every year there is an excuse for him. His 2nd half of his career is inexcusable. He should have won 4 or 5 titles, and settled on 2. This is a guy whose teams because much better when he decided to completely stop shooting at all. Think about it, what other player had his teams get better from him shooting the most to shooting even less frequently than the #10 guy on the team?

    This post was edited by Coltsfan1832644 on 6/22/2012 at 9:36 AM

    Coltsfan1832644

  • Coltsfan1832 said...

    His "potential" is GOAT. Since he didn't harness it, he has to settle for #4 or #5. And yes people played against Shaq would rank him high. He was the most unguardable guy of his era. Just look at what he did from 98-03 and look at what he did in his first 5 finals.

    Sounds like Wilt.

    uncc9ers

  • uncc9ers said...

    Sounds like Wilt.

    except for 2x the title and the fact that Shaq played better in the postseason and tanked the regular season, while Wilt was the opposite. He never stepped up in the postseason.

    Coltsfan1832644

  • Coltsfan1832 said...

    His "potential" is GOAT. Since he didn't harness it, he has to settle for #4 or #5. And yes people played against Shaq would rank him high. He was the most unguardable guy of his era. Just look at what he did from 98-03 and look at what he did in his first 5 finals.

    He also won titles against teams led by an aging Reggie Miller (a Pacers team that had actually peaked in '98), a one-man Allen Iverson show, and Jason Kidd (after whom, the dropoff was HUGE). There were also no great centers playing during those title years, all coming after the primes of Robinson, Hakeem, and Ewing. I love Shaq, but over the breadth of an NBA career, there are far too many holes for him to be considered in the top 7 of all time, and the fact that he was a fourth quarter liability, not a great defensive player, and - outside of Wilt - is the only top 10 player who had his level of effort and commitment put into question, there's just no way you could say you'd rather have him over these other guys. This isn't about who made his opponents look the tiniest - we're talking about transcendent players, and none of these guys are alike, so I expect better arguments than "He has more titles" or "He averaged more points".

    cathal

  • cathal said...

    He also won titles against teams led by an aging Reggie Miller (a Pacers team that had actually peaked in '98), a one-man Allen Iverson show, and Jason Kidd (after whom, the dropoff was HUGE). There were also no great centers playing during those title years, all coming after the primes of Robinson, Hakeem, and Ewing. I love Shaq, but over the breadth of an NBA career, there are far too many holes for him to be considered in the top 7 of all time, and the fact that he was a fourth quarter liability, not a great defensive player, and - outside of Wilt - is the only top 10 player who had his level of effort and commitment put into question, there's just no way you could say you'd rather have him over these other guys. This isn't about who made his opponents look the tiniest - we're talking about transcendent players, and none of these guys are alike, so I expect better arguments than "He has more titles" or "He averaged more points".

    Why are you focusing so much on the finals opponents? Shaq went through the toughest conference in history in that era. Look at what he had to go through in 2001 and he swept the conference. In 2000 he beat an amazing Blazers team and 2002 it was the Kings.

    He did a play against a great center in the 01 finals. Mutombo won the DPOY and Shaq torched him for 33-17. No one else was doing that against Mutombo.

    Coltsfan1832644

  • Magic
    Bird
    Duncan
    Shaq
    Kobe
    Lebron

    If you're broadcasting a game, tell it the way it really is, but keep your opinions to yourself...! Peter Angelos

    raveninwoodlawn

  • Bird
    Magic
    Duncan
    Shaq
    Kobe
    Lebron

    marylandmike

  • iheartjamesgist said...

    Old players are always so overrated. I always have trouble placing Shaq on the list because he's just so much different than everyone else, but there's no way Kobe isn't top-3 on this list. I'd probably have to rank it:

    Kobe Magic Shaq LeBron Duncan Bird

    and LeBron's really the only one who can (and probably will) move up the list

    You're heavily overrating Kobe. Even in his peak (06 and 07 seasons) where he was giving you 33 points a night, he was doing with a 46% fg%, which for a list like this is just not good enough. He's got the rings, but only 2 finals mvps and only 1 regular season mvp. Even if you value his high scoring and number of championships more than others, there's no way he's a better player than Magic Johnson.

    srterp

  • marylandmike said...

    Bird Magic Duncan Shaq Kobe Lebron

    RUSERIOUS

    Canyonerooooo

  • Magic
    Shaq
    Kobe
    Duncan
    LeBron
    Bird

    OregonTerp

  • srterp said...

    Magic (#3) Bird (#5) Duncan (#7) Shaq (#8) Kobe (#9) LeBron (#12)

    This is just by their careers. If we're going by talent and ability, it's either Magic or Lebron at the top.

    This.

    34wassmooth

  • Sweet!LaserTag! said...

    RUSERIOUS

    Yes?

    I'm also biased as shit, so there's that.

    marylandmike

  • srterp said...

    You're heavily overrating Kobe. Even in his peak (06 and 07 seasons) where he was giving you 33 points a night, he was doing with a 46% fg%, which for a list like this is just not good enough. He's got the rings, but only 2 finals mvps and only 1 regular season mvp. Even if you value his high scoring and number of championships more than others, there's no way he's a better player than Magic Johnson.

    I'm definitely ok with putting Magic ahead of Kobe. And Shaq too, but like I said, I never know where to rank him. But I can't see putting any of the others over him. LeBron certainly could get there, but he just hasn't accomplished enough. Duncan is great and eternally underated, but since they've played in the same era it's easy to just use the eyeball test and know that Kobe is better (and you really can't compare shooting %s, among other things, between a SG and a PF). And obviously Bird is a great player, but he couldn't dominate in every phase of the game like a Kobe, LeBron, or Magic could do. He was certainly a ridiculous talent offensively, but I can't see him being able to contain someone like LeBron or Durant on the other end.

    iheartjamesgist

  • TheArsenal said...

    By the end of his career Lebron will be #1 on this list.

    In 2-3 years, Lebron will be #1 on this list. One more MVP and one more Finals MVP and his resume beats all these guys. Everyone else has 2-3 Finals MVPs and everybody but Kobe has 2-3 MVPs.

    I went back at looked at season win shares for all of the players listed. They're not perfect, but they're the best way to broadly compare different players' value to their teams. It's pretty interesting what you see if you total each players best X seasons

    Best 3 seasons: Lebron, Shaq, Magic, Duncan, Bird Kobe

    Best 5 seasons: Lebron, Shaq, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe

    Best 10 seasons: Magic, Lebron, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe

    Best 13 seasons: Duncan, Shaq, Magic, Kobe, Bird, Lebron

    All career seasons: Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Magic, Bird, Lebron

    Thoughts:

    - If you look at any per game or per 48 min stats, Lebron is way out in front.

    - Lebron stays at number 2 for "10 best seasons" despite a crappy rookie year plus a zero because he's only played 9 years.

    - I included 13 seasons, because that was the cutoff for both Magic and Bird.

    - All seasons doesn't make sense because the 6 players have 19, 16, 15, 13, 13, and 9 seasons.

    - When all is said and done, Kobe will be clearly at the bottom of this list.

    Really good question. You could plausibly defend about 6 different answers. Not gonna even try.

    HoopheadVII

  • StewieTerp said...

    Bird 24/10/6

    Shaq 24/10/2
    Steals and blocks cancel each other out

    Three seconds on the clock...who do you want to take that last shot...Shaq or Bird?

    What a dreadful supporting argument.

    Terpes

  • dexterstjacques said...

    You're seriously using last shot as a tiebreaker? Yeah, a 7'1" 325 lb guy taking a 3 at the buzzer is the same as a 6'9" 220 lb one. Might as well put Robert Horry at the top of the list.

    HE'S GOT SEVEN RINGS!

    HoopheadVII

  • It'd be interesting to see pace-adjusted stats for these guys, to compare 80s to 90s to 00s scoring-wise especially.

    I'd also give a bit of a boost to Bird and Magic because the 80s allowed a more physical style of defense than you see today, which gives the stars of today an advantage on offense (especially guys like Wade and LeBron who excel attacking the rim).

    "And I try to har-mo-nize with songs the lonesome sparrow sings... There are no kings inside the Gates of Eden."

    dixonownsyou ●

  • dixonownsyou said...

    It'd be interesting to see pace-adjusted stats for these guys, to compare 80s to 90s to 00s scoring-wise especially.

    I'd also give a bit of a boost to Bird and Magic because the 80s allowed a more physical style of defense than you see today, which gives the stars of today an advantage on offense (especially guys like Wade and LeBron who excel attacking the rim).

    See win shares above.

    HoopheadVII

  • You usually want a guard with the ball at the end of a game. But who do you want to feed at the start of a game and most sets out of a time out? The dominant center who gets everything going.

    Magic
    Shaq
    Duncan
    Kobe
    Bird
    LeBron

    One more title and LBJ gets above Bird. 2+ more for LeBron, and you can start getting into some pretty huge debates.

    SBryan

Maryland
247Sports
Features
Resources
Connect

247Sports In partnership with CBS Sports