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As a matter of fact, "tackles" is an unofficial stat in the NFL, so those numbers - the only ones that could be used to support your argument - can, and do, lie.
Hartwell never replaced Ray, he was the full time starter in the 3-4. He started all but one game from 2002 to 2004. His stats took a turn upwards with Ray out, which makes sense since it must be tough to accumulate stats next to the most ferocious beast in the NFL. Bernardo Harris replaced Ray that year.
Once Ray got hurt, Hartwell played the role that Ray did. Yes, he started as the 2nd MLB when we played the true 3-4 in those years under Nolan. When Ray went down, Hartwell played the Lewis role and Harris the Hartwell role, though, at least in my opinion.
Didn't D'Qwell Jackson lead the league in tackles a year or so ago?
Now, I like D'Qwell a lot, and he's a really good linebacker, but you can't convince me he's the best LB in the league. He isn't remotely in the same class with Patrick Willis.
You can't really tell much just going by tackles. I'd love to see where some of Ray's prime seasons stack up in the newer PFF/FO-type stats like stops or defeats that try to account for down and distance when doling out credit for tackles.
2006 defense > 2000 defense.
I assume a lot of that is due to credit for partial tackles, so lets look at solo alone.
(using WM's absurd list of "better than London" players):
Sure, much of that is because London has played on some terrible defenses... making his ironman streak all that much more incredible.
If by "role" you mean the guy who had the most tackles and set the defense, then sure. That said, there isn't a serious fundamental difference between the two MLB positions in the 3-4.
Definitely sad for NFL fans that such a leader is retiring. Would like to see him on TV as an analyst or something.
Detroit Hustles Harder
Fair enough; regardless, he earned his big contract by playing without Ray Lewis, not with him.
1. A lot of it is because it's not that meaningful of a stat. A tackle for a 7 yard gain is counted the same as a tackle for a 1 yard gain.
2. Why would you exclude all stats prior to 2001? Other sites counted solo tackles prior to that.
And how does playing on bad defenses make the ironman streak more incredible?
Phil Savage (the Baltimore Ravens' College Scouting Director in 1996) reminds us today on WNST.net that Reggie Brown was rated higher than Ray Lewis on their board and had the Lions not taken Brown at #17, he would have been a Raven instead of Ray.
In some ways, I agree, but you just can't argue with 165 points in 16 games.
And 23 points in 4 playoff games, 7 of which coming from a kickoff return. If it wasn't for that return, they would have set the record for points in a 16 game season OVER A 20 GAME SPAN. That's outrageous.
I pulled them all from NFL.com, didn't notice they only went back so far, but at least that gives a comparable sample size for your group.
...and it makes the streak better because, by most of your admissions, London has padded his stats by being a good player on bad teams. Meaning he's on the field longer and doesn't have the assistance of better players making plays for him. He's been forced to do more, raising his risk of injury.
This is as bad as when Greivis and Gary finally left Maryland.
This post was edited by TheColfax 18 months ago
Why are you comparing stats? Lance Briggs is a 3x all pro and is 5 years younger. Willis is 10 years younger and has already been all pro 5x. I didn't say which one would have better stats, I said who would be ranked in how good of players they were. Brooking is the only really arguable on that list. Career long stats are relatively irrelevant in comparing players. Nobody thinks Thomas Jones is a better player then Terrell Davis.
I don't care if this is a serious post or not
LOL at all the butthurt Redskins fans on Facebook saying that Fletcher is as good as Lewis. Seriously, people, you cheapen all of us.
You're using stats to explain what makes London great, and then discounting those same stats to show off his durability. Pick one. The games played and the caliber of defenses that he played with are the two of the main arguments against him. Of course a good MLB on a bad defense is going to make a shit ton of tackles.
Nobody is arguing Fletcher isn't durable, but it's not like the other guys on the list are injury prone enough for me to care in an argument why one is better. If you want to cheapen the one thing that Fletcher has going for him (stat accumulation) in order to hype up his durability, go right ahead.
This post was edited by WMTerp12 18 months ago
When Fletcher ends a game like this, let's talk.
RAY LEWIS LAST PLAY AGAINST CHARGERS
Nothing that impressive, but the old man seemed like he was running Usain Bolt speed at Romo on his sacks on Sunday. I'm not sure if it was him or Riley who scared Romo into floating the last INT to Rob Jackson.
"And I try to har-mo-nize with songs the lonesome sparrow sings...
There are no kings inside the Gates of Eden."
No disrespect to Fletcher-I'm a fan of his, but he's not Ray Lewis. Come on.
Sure you can. Look at the schedule.
The 2000 defense was historically dominant, but the 2006 version was better, IMO, and played a much harder schedule.
"Argue with" kind of implies somone wants to disparage the accomplishments of either, which isn't the case. 2003 was our most underrated defense, FTR.
Here are some stats for you. Wrapped up in this article about how awesome JJ Watt is. He just broke Ray Lewis' record for "defeats" in a season.
One name keeps popping up on the list.
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