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Official SCOTUS Thread (Prop 8, DOMA arguments)

  • neal990 said...

    What if you're rich and can afford the $5,000 MRIs and whatnot out of your own pocket?

    Exactly. The question here is not opting out of the "medical market," it's opting out of the "insurance market."

    MisterNiceGuy

  • neal990 said...

    What if you're rich and can afford the $5,000 MRIs and whatnot out of your own pocket?

    Then you're just wickard - growing your own wheat rather than buying into the gov't "price-controlled" commodity

    rewsde

  • PaulUMD said...

    Ooh, Pubs must have reason to crow about something, cause RTH showed up here!

    The slippery slope argument is wrong. The transportation strawman is laughable. The transportation market is in no way similar to the medical market, as explained above. You can't avoid participation in the medical market, while many people can opt out of the transportation market without any real intrusion or costs to the taxpayers or the populace.

    Utterly false. The transportation anaology is very apt. Not enough people were buying American cars. (they were buying japanese cars, walking, riding bikes....taking public transportation...mangt made bad decisions or less desirable products. whatever). As a result...we had to bail out GM.

    Not everyone uses medical services. Heck...there are entire religions in this country. (Christian scientists) who dod not use any modern medicine. Its against their religion.

    All inactivity has costs associated with it. Think about it for a second. You like the public policy of this. I get that. But it this passes constitutional muster...everything does. All activity....and now inactivity has a cost associated with it.

    This isnt a pub/Dem thing. As I said before....I would HATE a single payer, govt run system. But I can admit that it wouldn't run afoul of the Commerce Clause.

    rthhokie92

  • Mandating that people have health care...I just do not see how the government can make you pay for something out of your pocket because it wants you to. I understand that it is for the benefit of the country, because I think that everyone needs healthcare who cannot afford to pay for it out of pocket. It's a complicated problem without an easy solution.

    My personal views is that most American's can afford healthcare, so let the ones who can afford it pay for it out of pocket pay if they choose to. The ones who can afford it but do not get health care...let them be stuck with the large bills if they need an ER visit. The ones who cannot afford it, offer assistance. It's kind of a no-brainer for someone who is being offered free or greatly reduced healthcare....

    EricTerp

  • People not engaging in preventative medicine can cause serious conditions not to be caught until they are in advanced stages, which makes them more expensive to treat. This imposes costs on the system, therefore the government should tell you how often to go to the doctor and what tests should be performed. Congress should pass a bill mandating that every citizen must get one physical, two visits to the dentist (because oral hygiene is linked to other kinds of hygiene), and screenings for diabetes, cancer, and congestive heart disease.

    neal990

  • rthhokie92 said...

    No because these case would almost certainly be consolidated before the S. Ct. Not sure what happens in a 4-4 tie in that case.

    I think its all going to come down to Kennedy.

    A 4-4 tie leaves the appeals court opinion(s) in place - it doesn't affirm or reverse them. It's basically like the Supreme Court never heard the case. So both the appeals court decisions striking down ObamaCare and those upholding it would be left in place, resulting in the situation where, for example, ObamaCare is valid in California (assuming the 9th Circuit upholds) but unconstitutional in Virginia (if the 4th Circuit strikes it down). In my view, that would be a win for ObamaCare's opponents, as there would be enough chaos, I think, that they'd have to scrap it and start over.

    MisterNiceGuy

  • My understanding is that the law does not have a severability clause, though I think some of it could be saved if just the mandate is declared unconstitutional.

    neal990

  • rewsde said...

    Just read the opinion.

    Deeply, deeply flawed reasoning.

    Essentially ignores N&P clause and completely ignores the fact that the clause can mandate conduct not itself proscribed by the commerce clause (essentially holding that a law may not be constitutional under the Necessary and Proper Clause unless it would also be constitutional on some other independent ground, a reading which is not only in conflict with prior N&P jurisprudence but would facially render the clause meaningless in application).

    lolol. If this is what it takes for a good, deeply conservative, judge to overturn I'd say 99% Kennedy votes to uphold

    Ah....the N&P argument is a red herring and its addressed in the opinion pretty clearly. N&P only comes into play if the clause or portion of the act is otherwise consitutional. Tahts the whole issue....does the individual mandate pass constitutional muster under the commerce clause.

    Its worse than Wickard.....and thats widely thought to be one of the worst decisions ever.

    rthhokie92

  • rewsde said...

    Then you're just wickard - growing your own wheat rather than buying into the gov't "price-controlled" commodity

    Yep. And Wickard is, short of Dred Scott and Korematsu, the most shameful case in scotus history. I hope they overturn it but I have my doubts that they'll be willing to take such a bold step.

    neal990

  • neal990 said...

    My understanding is that the law does not have a severability clause, though I think some of it could be saved if just the mandate is declared unconstitutional.

    I think thats right....but if the mandate is struck down...the bill is untenable. The costs would be bankrupt the plan. It would also give more than enough politcal cover to the right to get it repealed.

    Actually...it may give the liberals what they want in the end too. Ultimately...the only thing that is viable and pass consitutional muster would be some sort of Gov't sponsored single payer/Medicaid system.

    rthhokie92

  • neal990 said...

    Yep. And Wickard is, short of Dred Scott and Korematsu, the most shameful case in scotus history. I hope they overturn it but I have my doubts that they'll be willing to take such a bold step.

    I can't wait for Kennedy to pontificate about the importance of stare decisis when he showed in Lawrence v. Texas that he doesn't have a problem discarding it when it suits him.

    MisterNiceGuy

  • If people opt out of health insurance and go to the hospital for an emergency and they can't afford the treatment...

    Seems to me there are the following solutions:

    1. Make everyone get health insurance
    2. Instruct doctors to refuse care to people without up front payment or proof of insurance
    3. Have taxpayers foot the bill for the medical emergencies uninsured people that cant pay for the services out of their own pocket

    Thats it. Thats the entire list of solutions. Is there something that I'm missing? Is there another option? I dont see anyone advocating the second solution, so its really between 1 and 3. How can anyone be ok with 3 and putting taxpayers (us) on the hook for the irresponsible behavior of others?

    1thegame

  • neal990 said...

    Yep. And Wickard is, short of Dred Scott and Korematsu, the most shameful case in scotus history. I hope they overturn it but I have my doubts that they'll be willing to take such a bold step.

    Not necessarily disagreeing re quality of opinion but if they want this gone they need to overturn it rather than disingenuously inadequately distinguish it

    rewsde

  • MisterNiceGuy said...

    I can't wait for Kennedy to pontificate about the importance of stare decisis when he showed in Lawrence v. Texas that he doesn't have a problem discarding it when it suits him.

    stare decisis doctrine is a joke and always has been. agree? stare decisis! disagree? stare decisis not applicable because...

    rewsde

  • Just like to add that anyone who didn't see this decision coming from this judge idiots. The judge owns part of a consulting firm that works to get GOP candidates elected including Boehner, Bachman, McCain, etc. The firm also worked on behalf on the plaintiff (attorney general of VA) to get him elected.

    Now he did say that when became judge he would no longer have anything to do with the day to day operations of the place.

    ColbertRepor

  • ColbertRepor said...

    Just like to add that anyone who didn't see this decision coming from this judge idiots. The judge owns part of a consulting firm that works to get GOP candidates elected including Boehner, Bachman, McCain, etc. The firm also worked on behalf on the plaintiff (attorney general of VA) to get him elected.

    Now he did say that when became judge he would no longer have anything to do with the day to day operations of the place.

    literally the single best option for challengers in the entire federal judiciary. Like I said, premium judge shopping here

    rewsde

  • ColbertRepor said...

    Just like to add that anyone who didn't see this decision coming from this judge idiots. The judge owns part of a consulting firm that works to get GOP candidates elected including Boehner, Bachman, McCain, etc. The firm also worked on behalf on the plaintiff (attorney general of VA) to get him elected.

    Now he did say that when became judge he would no longer have anything to do with the day to day operations of the place.

    This is a little bit of a streeeetccchhh. He owns like $20K in stock in the firm...that I believe a family member/neighbor started and he invested. I dont believe he ever worked there....or as ever run anything day to day or otherwise. (Dude has been a Federal Judge...and before that a Fairfax Judge for a pretty long time)

    This is pretty petty stuff compared to many/most federal Judges. Hudson is no hack....pretty well respected by oth sides of the aisle. (CHeck out Dick Saslaw's comments in the Post last week. Saslaw is a Dem. and the majority leader of the Virginia Senate.)

    rthhokie92

  • rewsde said...

    literally the single best option for challengers in the entire federal judiciary. Like I said, premium judge shopping here

    ah...you cant Judge shop in EDVA. It assigned by random chance when you file the case. Just as easily could have gotten a Judge appointed me a Democrat.....there are plenty in EDva.

    rthhokie92

  • rthhokie92 said...

    This is a little bit of a streeeetccchhh. He owns like $20K in stock in the firm...that I believe a family member/neighbor started and he invested. I dont believe he ever worked there....or as ever run anything day to day or otherwise. (Dude has been a Federal Judge...and before that a Fairfax Judge for a pretty long time)

    This is pretty petty stuff compared to many/most federal Judges. Hudson is no hack....pretty well respected by oth sides of the aisle. (CHeck out Dick Saslaw's comments in the Post last week. Saslaw is a Dem. and the majority leader of the Virginia Senate.)

    i want some of this stock. he has gotten 15k a year in dividends on only a 20k investment........

    ColbertRepor

  • Right....but I still dont see a conflict of interest. Its not like its a secret he comes from a GOP background. (He was elected the CA in Arlington as a Pub. He was appointed at US Attorney as a pub...and appointed to the Federal bench by a Pub.

    I think the last GOP to be elected county wide in Arlington....albeit it was like 25/30 years ago). Its not like he benefits or the firm benefits if he strikes it down. Im not sure what the angst is over this.

    rthhokie92

  • This is going to the supreme court regardless. Could have been learned hand writing the opinion, which ever way it went it was destined to be appealed.

    neal990

  • ZOMG....LEGISLATING FROM THE BENCH!!!!!

    skindeep

  • neal990 said...

    Yep. And Wickard is, short of Dred Scott and Korematsu, the most shameful case in scotus history. I hope they overturn it but I have my doubts that they'll be willing to take such a bold step.

    THEY OVERTURNED DRED SCOTT?

    What sort of Pennsylvania Yankee propaganda is that?!?

    "And I try to har-mo-nize with songs the lonesome sparrow sings... There are no kings inside the Gates of Eden."

    dixonownsyou

  • you have to wonder why terrorists instead of killing random people do not target justices that affect policy? By killing off all of the conservative justices, the terrorists could
    insure a liberal policy succeeds, further weakening America.

    Many of Pitt's 58 "rushing attempts" were the result qb Tino Sunseri fleeing the pocket like a man whose clothes were on fire.

    Nolaeer

  • neal990 said...

    People not engaging in preventative medicine can cause serious conditions not to be caught until they are in advanced stages, which makes them more expensive to treat. This imposes costs on the system, therefore the government should tell you how often to go to the doctor and what tests should be performed. Congress should pass a bill mandating that every citizen must get one physical, two visits to the dentist (because oral hygiene is linked to other kinds of hygiene), and screenings for diabetes, cancer, and congestive heart disease.

    Exactly...it's so easy to say that it's unfair to "force" someone to buy health insurance because on their own monthly medical bills they don't have any break-down of how much uninsured people jacked up their medical bills. I mean people act like the government is forcing fat-a$$ Rushbo to buy HC when in reality it's his underpaid lawn guy that screws us all when that easily treated minor thing turns into a massive bills when dude ends up in the ER. I don't think it's fair that I should have to pay more in premiums because some f*cking morons like to gamble so they can have a few extra bucks for Nascar tickets.

    9/21/2010...RIP Old IMS.

    Kaisersayzo