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Indecision 2012 - Stage of Grief: Acceptance (Northeast 4/24)

  • Romney has to be the candidate. It's painfully clear he's the only real option. Paul is terrific and would be valuable in an administration but he isn't viable. Newt has some good ideas but he's still Newt. Santorum is an absolute fraud and I never want to hear that idiot speak again.

      MuddyLake

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    • MuddyLake said...

      Romney has to be the candidate. It's painfully clear he's the only real option. Paul is terrific and would be valuable in an administration but he isn't viable. Newt has some good ideas but he's still Newt. Santorum is an absolute fraud and I never want to hear that idiot speak again.

      This is why Michigan liberals need to push Santorum over the top. My vote is set.

        ErnieMcCracken

      • A few things. One, everything was skewed towards Romney because the crowd was heavily Romney. Romney's normal stump speech answers were drawing hoops and hollers, while Santorum's normal stump speech answers were getting booed. I think that skewed the debate heavily in Romney's favor and may be the biggest reason Romney looked as good as he did in the debate. That perception had nothing to do with Santorum's actual performance and I actually felt like his ability to stay cool while getting booed on a regular basis was pretty impressive.

        Also, the fact that he was getting double teamed by Romney and Paul raised the degree of difficulty on his debate by a very high margin. Again, that was something that really hurt him in the debate that had nothing to do with his actual performance.

        I did miss the first 10 minutes or so, so it's possible Romney did much better during that time and I missed it. But on the whole, I was impressed with Santorum's ability to stay calm and collected, answer questions as honestly as possible, perry attacks fairly well while landing one haymaker on Romney but not much else.

        Yes, some of his answers hurt him because the positions simply aren't popular. But I really felt that the way he dealt with each one directly, birth control, no child left behind, made him come across as honest and self confident and stood in steep contrast to the robotic consultant driven responses that Romney gives.

        On the whole, I just feel like being the front runner is a tough position to be in and given the extraneous factors he was dealing with, he handled himself very well. He got beat up a little bit, but he never gave in or let it get to him. He was able to land one forceful well aimed blow on Romney and he made a very good closing argument. And the fact that he looked about two inches taller then Romney helped his optics the whole debate. He's clearly a flawed candidate, but for what he was working with, I thought he did about as well as he could have and he came off to this fairly liberal guy as yes, likable.

        Just my opinion.

          sohlman6

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        • ColbertRepor said...

          and he is right about Al Queda's goal on 9/11....bankrupt our nation.

          He is right. Al Qaeda's problem is they thought we could be defeated the same way the Soviet Union was. The Soviet Union was bankrupted by its military expenditures because it didn't have a strong, growing free-market economy to support those expenditures. The USA is a different animal. With the benefit of hindsight they would realize that the real way to bankrupt a Western democracy is to support leftist politicians that will suffocate the country with unsustainable social spending (see Europe).

            MisterNiceGuy

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          • MuddyLake said...

            Santorum is an absolute idiot. "The difference between me and the left is the left uses government programs to alter behavior, I'm merely bringing the issue up.... Also, I introduced a government program to mandate abstinence"

            Yep, tonight Santorum put all of his hypocritical contradictions on display. Opposes obamacare because he doesn't want the government involved in healthcare, unless it is to promote his social agenda. Hates the federal government getting involved in affairs of state and local government, but he supported No Child Left Behind (and it wasn't like he just voted for it, he was a major proponent of it). Criticizes Romney for not being consistent, but says that "there's no i in team." Supported Arlen Specter over Pat Toomey because there's no i in team. Can't stand the government funding contraception, but voted every year for the bill that funds planned parenthood.

              neal990

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            • Forget Zombie Reagan, Zombie Eisenhower would lap this field by Friday afternoon.

                "And I try to har-mo-nize with songs the lonesome sparrow sings... There are no kings inside the Gates of Eden."

                dixonownsyou

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              • dixonownsyou said...

                Forget Zombie Reagan, Zombie Eisenhower would lap this field by Friday afternoon.

                If Bob Dole announced tomorrow that he was running, I think he'd win enough delegates to get a brokered convention. And he's 88 years old.

                  tent84

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                • Newt returned to his debate form last night...he was good (not great). Ron Paul was excellent. If whoever wins the nomination doesn't include Paul in his administration in some capacity, it'll be a shame. And from Paul's standpoint, he should jump at the chance to make a difference in government through working in the executive branch.

                  This post was edited by frode on 2/23/2012 at 5:04 AM

                    frode

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                  • frode said...

                    Newt returned to his debate form last night...he was good (not great). Ron Paul was excellent. If whoever wins the nomination doesn't include Paul in his administration in some capacity, it'll be a shame. And from Paul's standpoint, he should jump at the chance to make a difference in government through working in the executive branch.

                    Think that promise has been made based on the cozy Romney/Paul relationship.

                      interpid

                    • Sohlman, you can say that you want Santorum so that Obama has a chance at winning 50 states.

                        KickinWang52

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                      • KickinWang52 said...

                        Sohlman, you can say that you want Santorum so that Obama has a chance at winning 50 states.

                        The fact that Santorum is even still a factor makes me weep for our future.

                          GunnerOne 84

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                        • GunnerOne 84 said...

                          The fact that Santorum is even still a factor makes me weep for our future.

                          Thing is, he's not really a factor, and neither is Gingrich. The only way they're a factor, IMO, is to either help the GOP get to a brokered convention because Romney isn't a good conservative candidate, or to steer Romney to the right if he's going to be the nominee.

                          Neither of them will win the nomination...Gingrich won the spotlight as a not-Romney, but lost it because he is who he is. Santorum will follow the same path.

                            frode

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                          • interpid said...

                            Think that promise has been made based on the cozy Romney/Paul relationship.

                            Probably but I also think Paul realizes he doesn't have a shot and sees Santorum as a nut job who has no chance in the general. I think he is helping Romney since he is the only shot they have in the fall.

                              StewieTerp

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                            • frode said...

                              Thing is, he's not really a factor, and neither is Gingrich. The only way they're a factor, IMO, is to either help the GOP get to a brokered convention because Romney isn't a good conservative candidate, or to steer Romney to the right if he's going to be the nominee.

                              Neither of them will win the nomination...Gingrich won the spotlight as a not-Romney, but lost it because he is who he is. Santorum will follow the same path.

                              Except if Pubs actually want Romney to win he needs to steer towards the center. That's how you win presidential elections, by veering to the middle.

                              And Santorum is a factor so long as the Republican Party is even partially beholden to their wignut religious moralist part of the base. The party should just suck it up and tell those people to fuck off and go form your own "conservative except when I want to impose my moral code on you" party. See how long that survives in any meaningful way.

                                bkmalik

                              • frode said...

                                Newt returned to his debate form last night...he was good (not great). Ron Paul was excellent. If whoever wins the nomination doesn't include Paul in his administration in some capacity, it'll be a shame. And from Paul's standpoint, he should jump at the chance to make a difference in government through working in the executive branch.

                                Paul's libertarian ideals are so far removed from the big-government republicans, it would be hard to see this ever happening

                                  RDurr

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                                • KickinWang52 said...

                                  Sohlman, you can say that you want Santorum so that Obama has a chance at winning 50 states.

                                  That's possible that subconciously I'm just rooting for Santorum. Either way, I usually don't read Andrew Sullivan, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought he did well last night:

                                  "Maybe I've lost my mind after all these debates, or maybe I secretly want him to win (because he would finally expose all the insanity that has been building in this party and needs venting). But I thought Santorum was on form tonight. My sense is that he will not lose his current momentum after tonight. I didn't feel Newt tonight. Romney doesn't wear well. Paul was great and funny and human."

                                  Live-Blogging The Mesa Debate - The Dish | By Andrew Sullivan - The Daily Beast

                                  http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/02/live-blogging-the-mesa-debate.html

                                  andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com

                                    sohlman6

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                                  • RDurr said...

                                    Paul's libertarian ideals are so far removed from the big-government republicans, it would be hard to see this ever happening

                                    Yes, but...I think Rand might be the real target here.

                                    Rand Paul | Mitt Romney | Vice President? | The Daily Caller

                                    Rand Paul says 'it would be an honor to be considered' as Romney's veep (this explains a lot)

                                    dailycaller.com

                                      frode

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                                    • bkmalik said...

                                      Except if Pubs actually want Romney to win he needs to steer towards the center. That's how you win presidential elections, by veering to the middle.

                                      Depends on the issue, and where Romney is vs. where the "center" is on said issue. For example, his new tax plan is more to the right of his previous one, and it'll probably appeal to more people than his previous 59-point monster.

                                        frode

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                                      • bkmalik said...

                                        Except if Pubs actually want Romney to win he needs to steer towards the center. That's how you win presidential elections, by veering to the middle.

                                        And Santorum is a factor so long as the Republican Party is even partially beholden to their wignut religious moralist part of the base. The party should just suck it up and tell those people to fuck off and go form your own "conservative except when I want to impose my moral code on you" party. See how long that survives in any meaningful way.

                                        Reagan and Bush 43 did okay without veering too much to the middle. Obama didn't really do it either (unless you call the empty rhetoric about "hope and change" veering toward the middle).

                                          MisterNiceGuy

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                                        • StewieTerp said...

                                          Probably but I also think Paul realizes he doesn't have a shot and sees Santorum as a nut job who has no chance in the general. I think he is helping Romney since he is the only shot they have in the fall.

                                          I still don't get the Paul/Romney thing.

                                          In the aggregate, Paul's views classify him as at least as much of a nutjob as Santorum. And the notion of him trying to shoot down Santorum for the greater good of the ol' GOP strikes me as unlikely because he's hardly cuddly with the party powers-that-be. And I honestly can't see what sort of job he'd want in the executive branch or that he's quite delusional enough to imagine Romney would want him in his administration anyway.

                                          The only thing I can think of is that he truly thinks Santorum is a fraud, and has no problem speaking his mind without regard to who it may help or hurt, and just coincidentally assists Romney in his attacks. (Though I admit that wouldn't explain why he seems not to have done much to attack Romney during the campaign when he clearly disagrees with much that he says and Romney is clearly as much of a fraud, if not more, than Santorum. Maybe it just doesn't bother him as much since Romney's fraudulence is so apparent to everyone and so often commented upon already.)

                                            sgii

                                          • More on the Romney-Paul alliance...looks like they're personal friends and political strategic partners. It's much deeper than I initially thought.

                                            This post was edited by frode on 2/23/2012 at 1:26 PM

                                            For Paul and Romney, a strategic alliance between outsider and establishment - The Washington Post

                                            Paul and his followers are working to gain a permanent foothold in the GOP nationwide. And that is just fine with the Romney campaign.

                                            www.washingtonpost.com

                                              frode

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                                            • frode said...

                                              More on the Romney-Paul alliance...looks like they're personal friends and political strategic partners. It's much deeper than I initially thought.

                                              That's an interesting piece, though I still find much of it hard to swallow and wonder whether Romney is just playing on Paul's vanity in the belief that he can be bought off cheaply down the road.

                                                sgii

                                              • sgii said...

                                                That's an interesting piece, though I still find much of it hard to swallow and wonder whether Romney is just playing on Paul's vanity in the belief that he can be bought off cheaply down the road.

                                                Back when this was first getting tossed around like a conspiracy theory, I had heard that the Paul delegates were prepared to throw their votes behind Romney if it came to that. They had even organized it so that Paulbots would vote for Romney in a state where Paul wouldn't do too well.

                                                It'd be easy to dismiss that, but the Paulbots are incredibly organized.

                                                It could be that Paul IS easy to buy off, once he's convinced he can't do more than that, but I also think Romney believes there's no harm in allowing Paul into his administration. Could be that he wants Paul as an attack dog to defend Constitutionalism when necessary.

                                                Secretary of the Treasury, perhaps?

                                                This post was edited by frode on 2/23/2012 at 1:48 PM

                                                  frode

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                                                • No way would Romney name him to a cabinet post, but he might make him the head of some special commission investigating the Fed or something.

                                                    neal990

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                                                  • neal990 said...

                                                    No way would Romney name him to a cabinet post

                                                    You don't think? I disagree, but I say that with the caveat that I'm not aware that Paul has any special expertise (HHS, perhaps) that would make him a leading candidate for a cabinet position. Still, I think you earn major GOP street cred having a Constitutionalist attack dog in your posse.

                                                    And seeing as this is probably Paul's last hurrah on the national stage, I just think it's a perfect situation for him to step into.

                                                    Edit: Having thought about it a bit more, Paul would be a liability if he started questioning the policies of the President he's serving...he's never minced words, and doesn't really have anything to lose by doing so.

                                                    This post was edited by frode on 2/23/2012 at 2:15 PM

                                                      frode

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