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Indecision 2012 - Obama vs. Romney Thread

  • SATerp said...

    Obama off to a fast start. I don't think Romney can match this.

    Looks like Obama got a heck of a bounce on that one.whistling

    bbpgtr

  • frode said...

    what to do?

    Obviously, debt is a major problem, but we are in an entirely different position because we have something the other countries don't -- an ability to get out of our debt problems via inflation/printing money.

    terps99

  • I think the Democrats COULD have an issue that they can really slam the republicans on with the Buffett rule/millionaire's tax but the more I think about it, the more I think they could really have the tables turned on them if they keep touting it on behalf of fairness rather than use an economics/debt argument.

    neal990

  • neal990 said...

    I think the Democrats COULD have an issue that they can really slam the republicans on with the Buffett rule/millionaire's tax but the more I think about it, the more I think they could really have the tables turned on them if they keep touting it on behalf of fairness rather than use an economics/debt argument.

    Well, they don't have an economics argument, as frode showed with his graph - it would have less than zero effect on debt reduction. They only have a populist attack.

    SATerp

  • Yeah I don't think the economics/debt argument is actually a good argument, but I think it will resonate with people more than just fairness. I.e. we actually want to do this as a step to reduce the debt, rather than we want to do this to be "fair."

    neal990

  • Speaking of Buffett, if he really thinks he owes more taxes, he could start with the BILLION in back taxes he owes. Yeah.

    Update: Warren Buffett’s Company Owes Nearly $1 Billion in Taxes | TheBlaze.com

    On Monday, The Blaze reported that Warren Buffett's company, Berkshire Hathaway, owes back taxes dating to 2002. The news is significant because in a recent op-ed column for the New York Times, Buffett, one of President Obama's staunchest supporters, stated that, to now, the have been coddled...

    www.theblaze.com

    irishbmad

  • neal990 said...

    Yeah I don't think the economics/debt argument is actually a good argument, but I think it will resonate with people more than just fairness. I.e. we actually want to do this as a step to reduce the debt, rather than we want to do this to be "fair."

    True. But they're going with the fairness argument in conjunction with attacks on Romney plan to lower taxes on the rich. In that sense I think its more effective.

    PaulUMD

  • terps99 said...

    Obviously, debt is a major problem, but we are in an entirely different position because we have something the other countries don't -- an ability to get out of our debt problems via inflation/printing money.

    True, but that just rapes us in a different way. And if our credit rating goes down again, it's going to be even more difficult for us.

    frode

  • neal990 said...

    Yeah I don't think the economics/debt argument is actually a good argument, but I think it will resonate with people more than just fairness. I.e. we actually want to do this as a step to reduce the debt, rather than we want to do this to be "fair."

    Yeah, this is where Romney can school Obama in a debate...talk about the real issues of the economy (value of dollar, debt/inflation, etc.) and show that he knows the technical stuff a lot better than Obama does. Obama's speeches on the economy have been some of the most inarticulate, undetailed crap I've ever heard come out of his mouth.

    This post was edited by frode on 4/11/2012 at 8:11 AM

    frode

  • PaulUMD said...

    True. But they're going with the fairness argument in conjunction with attacks on Romney plan to lower taxes on the rich. In that sense I think its more effective.

    Yeah Romney had originally said that he was fine only cutting taxes for middle income.e earners and restructuring the tax code in ways that might hit him more, but with the endorsement of Ryan's plan I think he lost his leg to stand on. Before he was a rich guy saying he wanted to cut taxes for the middle class and small businesses, now he can more easily be painted as a rich guy who wants to cut his own taxes

    neal990

  • frode said...

    Yeah, this is where Romney can school Obama in a debate...talk about the real issues of the economy (value of dollar, debt/inflation, etc.) and show that he knows the technical stuff a lot better than Obama does. Obama's speeches on the economy have been some of the most inarticulate, undetailed crap I've ever heard come out of his mouth.

    Any talk of debt reduction that doesn't include some increase in revenue simply isn't credible. As for Obama's undetailed crap, what about Ryan's budget proposal? What loop holes does he want to close? Is it mortgage reduction? Is it educational loan defferment? What? Good luck if he wants to eliminate mortgage interest dedcution along with tax cuts for the wealthy. That pil won't go down well. Another thing, if Mitten's wants to be seen as trustworthy he needs to release his financials now..not later.

    cjterps98

  • cjterps98 said...

    Any talk of debt reduction that doesn't include some increase in revenue simply isn't credible. As for Obama's undetailed crap, what about Ryan's budget proposal? What loop holes does he want to close? Is it mortgage reduction? Is it educational loan defferment? What? Good luck if he wants to eliminate mortgage interest dedcution along with tax cuts for the wealthy. That pil won't go down well. Another thing, if Mitten's wants to be seen as trustworthy he needs to release his financials now..not later.

    Stop watching MSNBC. There are literally entire departments that are completely useless you could eliminate. How about we take a break from bombing brown people overseas and bring our troops home from GERMANY? We don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending and borrowing problem. We borrow $40,000 dollars a second. Did you know if you abolished the income tax right now the federal government would have as much revenue as we did in 2002?

    Havax

  • By the way, I'm not voting for Romney but he doesn't want to lower taxes for *just* the rich and he did release his tax returns. Stop just retreading things you simply .overhear on television.

    Havax

  • cjterps98 said...

    Any talk of debt reduction that doesn't include some increase in revenue simply isn't credible.

    That's simply not true. Expenditures are far outpacing any fluctuations in revenue; anyone can see that. The problem is further exacerbated because unemployment is both decreasing the number of taxpayers and increasing the number of people receiving government benefits.

    You can increase revenue by significantly increasing the number of employed people, and broadening the tax base...even before you talk about a change in tax rates.

    frode

  • I'm not sure what the Obama campaign is trying to do with this Buffet rule/populist argument...I think it is a loser, all told. Maybe they are trying to fire up the base, and then work toward the middle as the campaign progresses? Either way, it doesn't feel like either campaign is off to a roaring start.

    LeafeeWolf

  • the Ryan budget doesn't take a penny away from the military nor does it reduce the funding levels to the Clinton years before the two wars. I'm all for stopping the bombing of brown peoples but the Ryan budget treats the military like a sacred cow. Personally, I'd rather flush money on people's well being than bombs... but that's just me.

    cjterps98

  • cjterps98 said...

    the Ryan budget doesn't take a penny away from the military nor does it reduce the funding levels to the Clinton years before the two wars. I'm all for stopping the bombing of brown peoples but the Ryan budget treats the military like a sacred cow. Personally, I'd rather flush money on people's well being than bombs... but that's just me.

    It's fine that you have issues with Ryan's budget. Most people do, but it's a serious proposal to tackle our fiscal problems. Where is Obama's?

    terps687

  • frode said...

    Yeah, this is where Romney can school Obama in a debate...talk about the real issues of the economy (value of dollar, debt/inflation, etc.) and show that he knows the technical stuff a lot better than Obama does. Obama's speeches on the economy have been some of the most inarticulate, undetailed crap I've ever heard come out of his mouth.

    Romney was 47th in the country in creating jobs when Governor and when he "saved" the olympics he got the federal government to hand him 1.3 billion dollars to do so. I'm not so sure Romney is going to be able to school anyone on anything unless it involves being a Wall street type that buys companies and fire-sales them when making outrageous amounts of money for a select few. This idea that Romney is some great economic savior is the easiest target I've seen in a while.

    This post was edited by Kaisersayzo on 4/11/2012 at 9:12 AM

    9/21/2010...RIP Old IMS.

    Kaisersayzo

  • frode said...

    That's simply not true. Expenditures are far outpacing any fluctuations in revenue; anyone can see that. The problem is further exacerbated because unemployment is both decreasing the number of taxpayers and increasing the number of people receiving government benefits.

    You can increase revenue by significantly increasing the number of employed people, and broadening the tax base...even before you talk about a change in tax rates.

    It simply IS true. You're describing trickle down economics in which has been tried the last three republican presidents and all three times has failed miserably. Of course you will retort with "but the idea is sound but they didn't cut enough spending"...but that's not going to happen and you know it.

    9/21/2010...RIP Old IMS.

    Kaisersayzo

  • PaulUMD said...

    True, but likely voter models this far out are kinda ridiculous. Saying their sample is likely voters is not as simple as calling people and only taking info from people who say they're likely voters. It's using modeling to predict sample turnouts and lining up the data to match those models. And the most recent turnout data is from the GOP pawnage of 2010, so it's not surprising to see current likely voter polls showing a tilt toward Romney. It's probably why Rasmussen always leans GOP because they only use their likely voter models in their polling.

    well....there are a couple good articles that point some real head scrathcers with the polls. The ABC/WP poll that has Obama up 7...used a +11 Democratic Model. Im not sure I get that at all. Thats way inflated. Even in 2008...a perfect storm for DEms....the turnout was only +7.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2012/04/10/wapoabc-poll-adds-seven-points-to-dem-advantage-in-sample/

    So...while Rasmussen does poll LV instead of just RV.....I think a much bigger issue is what modeling assumptions people are making.

    rthhokie92

  • LeafeeWolf said...

    I'm not sure what the Obama campaign is trying to do with this Buffet rule/populist argument...

    It says "hey everybody! I'm going to take money from these BAD rich people, and give it to YOU! Vote for me! Weeeeeeeee!"

    It's not a populist argument, it's a naked purchase of votes.

    You can argue whether the Robin Hood resdistribution of our nation's wealth is a good idea or the right thing to do, but it is certainly not based on any feasible plan to fix our nation's economic problems. And it won't.

    terpinnyc

  • Kaisersayzo said...

    It simply IS true. You're describing trickle down economics in which has been tried the last three republican presidents and all three times has failed miserably. Of course you will retort with "but the idea is sound but they didn't cut enough spending"...but that's not going to happen and you know it.

    I don't think that's what trickle down economics is at all

    neal990

  • terps99 said...

    Obviously, debt is a major problem, but we are in an entirely different position because we have something the other countries don't -- an ability to get out of our debt problems via inflation/printing money.

    Another unique feature: we borrow in our own currency, which has the magical effect of when it is devalued, we owe less.

    This is why we get so pissed when the Chinese peg their Yuan to the dollar.

    terpinnyc

  • Kaisersayzo said...

    Romney was 47th in the country in creating jobs when Governor and when he "saved" the olympics he got the federal government to hand him 1.3 billion dollars to do so. I'm not so sure Romney is going to be able to school anyone on anything unless it involves being a Wall street type that buys companies and fire-sales them when making outrageous amounts of money for a select few. This idea that Romney is some great economic savior is the easiest target I've seen in a while.

    I'll grant you this statement, if you own up to the fact that Obama lost 8 million jobs and that GM is profitable because it is producing cars with 68 thousand fewer workers and government ownership/sponsorship.

    Massachusetts got killed by the dot.com debacle.

    terp7475

  • Havax said...

    By the way, I'm not voting for Romney but he doesn't want to lower taxes for *just* the rich and he did release his tax returns. Stop just retreading things you simply .overhear on television.

    Not exactly

    Romney can't get away with releasing 2 tax returns - Opinions from the wire - fresnobee.com , Romney can't get away with releasing 2 tax returns - Opinions fr

    The following editorial appeared in the San Jose Mercury News on Tuesday, April 10:,The following editorial appeared in the San Jose Mercury News on Tuesday, April 10:

    www.fresnobee.com

    Layman ... Jake Layman!

    reeceg1