Off-Topic

Yeah, when he was on the phone with the dispatcher, he did not say anything about Martin looking into windows. Let's stop referring to that as suspicious activity because we don't have any reason to believe it was true right now. Baldwin, you are giving Zimmerman way too benefit of the doubt. Between his behavior and recent tendencies and the PD's crappy work, there's no reason to believe much of what was reported from his perspective.

The day they started getting minority status.

The dispatcher asked him was he following Trayvon. Zimmerman said yes.

Proof that lawyer degrees come in Pez dispensers.

I've read that he was looking in windows, but it was not part of the 911 call, you're right.

Do you acknowledge that Trayvon was standing next to a house and not just walking down the sidewalk? That could be a source of our miscommunication.

Trayvon's girlfriend said that he took refuge from the rain at a random house and that's when Zimmerman saw him. Completely innocent action that also looks incredibly suspicious. Putting your hoodie up and running away when you see someone watching you is also completely innocent and is also exactly what someone would do if they were about to break into a house and noticed someone was there. If I saw someone doing that in my neighborhood with no history of break ins, I would take notice

If you think he was just walking down the street and this guy thought being black while wearing a hoodie is suspicious and decided to call the police, I agree with you 100%. That's messed up and anyone who did that is a complete asshole and at the very least somewhat racist.

I just don't think that's what happened based on the information given.

Thread over IMO.

That self-defense/stand your ground law has nothing to do with stalking innocent citizens and creating a problem that can then be trumped up as "self-defense."

The problem is that there's only one side to the story and in that story, Trayvon allegedly initiated contact and started the physical altercation.

You could also add that the force you apply in "self defense" should not be allowed to greatly exceed the force you are facing. The fact that "He was punching me so I shot him" is a viable defense against murder is a HUGE problem. Where do you draw the line? If a 14 year old kid was getting ready to deliver an open handed slap, are you allowed to shoot him?

Yeah, maybe I don't understand the spirit of that law. Did its creators intend to empower a guy to do what Zimmerman did (repeatedly)? I thought I heard a Florida lawmaker say something today to the effect of "this isn't what we meant..."

But you're right, I shouldn't have been speaking out of my ass since I really don't know this statute or its intent...

Well I think there were actually some even more damning stories about the shakiness of this law....like some gang fight where a bystander was caught in the crossfire and the shooter got off because according to stand your ground he is technically allowed to return fire if he fears for his life. Can't remember exactly but I think it was along those lines.

I didn't mean you were wrong about whether or not Zimmerman SHOULD be able to get a pass on this, I just meant to say that the whole reason this case is murky is because of this dubious law.

It really is insane. Like it covers thousands of scenarios but really only fits the single scenario of "I have a gun, someone is about to kill me so I kill him first. Everything besides that needs to be ignored. If you meet someone with deadly force and they respond with deadly force, you no longer get to claim self defense. If someone threatens to playfully push you in a swimming pool, you don't get to shoot them in self defense.

Even if Zimmerman is telling the truth 100% and he was returning to his car after successfully detering a kid from breaking into a house with a can of ice tea when the 140lb kid attacks him from behind and starts beating his face in...you don't get to murder him because you don't want a black eye.

What difference does it make if the kid looked and acted suspiciously? IMO Zimmerman is a cop/security guard wannabe that spent years acting out his fantasy and doing his best to find trouble. I'm about as big of a 2A proponent as anyone here, but there's no way that idiot should have been permitted for CCW, way too many red flags. And I also don't have a problem with a periodic/yearly review of all CCW holders to look for just these kinds of radar hits.

Bomani Jones did an excellent piece on this. The basic point is this:

"But so many black men look suspicious. The elephant in the room in this case is how mainstream the belief is that black men look “suspicious.” I’ve seen the outrage from many white people — and black ones, for that matter — that this could happen, but not a lick of introspection."

I find it pretty disheartening that much of the outrage is because Trayvon was the kind of black person that white America finds acceptable. As if it wouldn't have been a tragedy if the kid had a Philly beard, or wore his hat cocked to the side, or looked as menacing as Quincy Acy, or he was a D student. It feels like a lot of people are taking up the cause because this is an easy one to get behind. That way Zimmerman can go to jail, and people can just go back to the way they were before, without examining how mainstream these prejudices are.

I've certainly been guilty of it myself despite knowing better, and there are times when I'll look back at a particular thought or behavior, and say to myself "What the fuck is wrong with you?"

We have this mindset ingrained in us from the time we're born, it's a tangled issue, and one I'm not sure how we get past.

Another derail, just because I love digging into crime statistics, five white people were murdered in Baltimore in 2011. One was shot in 1998 but died last year, one got hit by a car driven by a guy who was being chased by police after an attempted break-in, one got stabbed in the neck with a broken bottle at the July 4th fireworks during an argument, and one got shot and dumped in Leakin Park(where else?) by her boyfriend. Not one where a random black guy just stalked and killed whitey. One I definitely remember from 2010 was Hopkins researcher Steven Pitcairn, who was stabbed by two drug addicts during a robbery while he was on the phone with his mom, which was fucking heartbreaking.